Galactic Dominion???

[marycatelli]

Can you have an interstellar empire?

Much depends on the technology.  One panelist observed that on Earth, to have an empire, you have to be able to field troops to a location inside it within three months.  Any longer than that, and it won't work.

We discussed the technology involved:  FTL travel, and how fast, FTL communications, and how fast.  This would have enormous impact on what is feasible.  We talked a bit about the optical telegraph in the Napoleonic times and the electronic telegraph.  Another panelist knew that the Romans had used a semaphore system.  (I brought up longevity, which would change some of the time spans involved, but we didn't go much on that.)

If the communication is slow enough we would need a top-down control for an alliance.  An alliance of equals could not negiotiate quickly enough.  And democracy would be impossible: correlating all the data and bring it up?  Much more likely an emperor with strong viceroys.  Also, what about all the information involved?  Some AIs to collate it all would be needed.  It is, after all, several plants.

Another technology that might be a factor is psychology.  The question of obedience might shift if the emperor can test for it, accurately, and condition for it.

What possible motives for an empire?  Economics are unlikely, there's very little to be traded once you have an FTL drive.  After all, any solar system has iron.  Ideology, alliance. . .

On the topic of aliens, we discussed how hydrogen breathers and oxygen breathers could have intermingling empires because they are not after the same resources.  Asteroid mining, we might be rivals at.  Also, I pointed out, solar energy is limited.  A Dyson sphere stage would certainly trigger rivalries.  One panelist thought that meant post-scarcity, and I observed that there will never be a post-scarcity society because if it were possible, we are living in it.  Another panelist talked about an Intuit tribe that starved to death a few years after a documentary on them; that's a scarcity society.  (How we go off on tangents!

Comments

[ford-prefect42.livejournal.com]

Sounds like a great panel! SO many possibilities!

[marycatelli]

Yes, we barely brushed on them, as we observed in the end.

[jordan179.livejournal.com]

What possible motives for an empire? Economics are unlikely, there's very little to be traded once you have an FTL drive. After all, any solar system has iron. Ideology, alliance.

Energy and exotic matter.

A civilization capable of interstellar travel is also able to harvest a large percentage of a star's output. This energy can be beamed across interstellar distances via (various frequency, not merely optical) lasers.

That's a fundamental good, but it's not a "trade" because energy = energy, thus no comparative advantage. The "trade" part of it comes in with exotic matter (such as negative mass matter, macroscopic nucelar matter, and such like stuffs). Exotic forms of matter would both be creatable by energy and obtainable from unusual natural conditions (such as black holes, neutron stars, or large Jovians in system).

Exotic matter would be important because it would circumvent the limits of "mere conventional" nanotechnology and allow actual femtotechnological manipulation of subatomic particles and spacetime.

One of the obvious uses of exotic matter would be to build wormholes -- Einstein-Rosen bridges connecting disparate points in spacetime at FTL speeds.

Which gets nicely back to your original point. The wormhole network would unify the interstellar empire.

[marycatelli]

Some locations, such as blue giants, might have advantages in harvesting energy to others, such as red dwarfs.

[jordan179.livejournal.com]

That's a very good point. Also, "exotic matter" is a catch-all term referring to many different possible unusual states of matter, ranging from "mere" ultradense forms of normal matter such as neutronium, all the way to things like "negative mass matter." Different systems would have differing wealth in different exotic-matter resources, and hence there would be comparative advantage in trade.

Re:

[marycatelli]

Assuming it's practical to transport. John C. Wright's Golden Age trilogy has one extra-solar colony, but it can't transfer back the exotic matter practically.

[ford-prefect42.livejournal.com]

For the purposes of this post, I am going to assume that humans are alone in the universe.

Also, while any solar system will have iron and ice, they will each have different levels of various materials, the atmospheres and climates will be different, meaning that different crops will grow relatively well or poorly. Different gravities will make things like wood with different properties (straight and very springy wood in low-g, denser and stronger for high). Different atmospheric mixes will impact the flavors of meat and other produce. Some planets will have higher tolerances for polluting industry, others will have lower overall labor costs... Essentially, all the reasons that people trade with other nations now will remain true. The question is, how high a value are the goods being traded, and that depends on the cost of transportation.

Now, why would we have voluntary empires? The main and obvious one is defense. Anytime you have 3 groups, 2 will team up against the third. 20 groups, 30, whatever, there will always be shifting alliances. Another possibility is technological monopoly, ALA "old man's war". And this is neglecting the possibilities of alien hostilities.

[marycatelli]

Would people really be willing to ship wood over interstellar distances?

[ford-prefect42.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't rule it out, for specific purposes. Consider "swamp logging" where petrified logs are retrieved and sold for tens of thousands of dollars per cubic foot. Or a rather more "current" version, "african blackwood", which sells for $25000/m3. At such numbers, even something as mundane as wood may well be shipped interstellar. Much like that, the special properties of wood grown under different conditions leading to different properties may find interstellar use.

[marycatelli]

Kinda depends on the cost of shipping it.

of course, it also depends on what other tech you have. If you can terraform a planet enough to grow things on it, you can do a lot of other stuff with biologics.