Heaven, Hell, and other poor settings

[marycatelli]

"First he had a little soup and then he had a little tea.  Then he wound his watch and said now he was done with time and had to turn to eternity."

I quote from memory, but this particular description of a death bed neatly encapsulates the problem with using Heaven or Hell as locations, because stories are wed to time, because they are wed to change.


C. S. Lewis's The Great Divorce perhaps came the closest to managing a story outside time, because it is very clear that most of the Ghosts are going to stay damned, but the context is a chance to change, and one of them does take it.  (And the scene where Lewis tries to depict for a moment the reality of the matter is the weakest part of the book.)

Other books, usually set in what is called Hell, tend to depict it as a place where change is  possible.  Even reform and escape.  Sometimes it is obviously and blatantly a misnomer to call it Hell at all:  in both intent and effect, it's Purgatory.

Though I have read a work set with a Chinese Heaven and Hell, both of which are just waystations where you hang out a bit before you come back for reincarnation.  That works.  It's trying to pull off a final Heaven and Hell that complicates life.

Comments

[mythusmage.livejournal.com]

Then start thinking of Hell as a place of transition, where God gets down and dirty in order to get your obstinate attention. It's what Niven and Pournelle do in their Inferno books.

I mean, what is the purpose of eternal punishment?

[izuko.livejournal.com]

Don't ask me, I'm just the maintenance guy, here. Heaven outsources to Nirvana. My wife works at Hell's call center, there.

[marycatelli]

The comic option, of course, turns everything upside down. Then again, it will seldom be about hellish or heavenly states.

[izuko.livejournal.com]

Are you saying that Dante's story wasn't funny?

[marycatelli]

Let us say that there are those who haven't found it so.

[marycatelli]

To indicate absolute choices.

[rhinemouse.livejournal.com]

The other option is to have your story be about someone who is just passing though, Dante-style, and not a proper resident of either location.

Though you would still have to deal with the problem of depicting a superlative, which honestly I think might be even more difficult. It's bad enough trying to write a character who's incredibly smart. But trying to portray a state of ultimate bliss or misery, without being cliched, trite, or simplistic, while capturing a sense of the numinous? Not easy.

I think this is somewhat related to the reason why fantasy often depicts angels and demons as just super-powered people (or monsters) with wings or horns. Angels and demons as actually described in traditional theology are so alien and extreme as to be really, really difficult to insert in a story.

[izuko.livejournal.com]

It's bad enough trying to write a character who's incredibly smart.

What do you mean? It's much harder to write you normal people...

Seriously, though, the little bit of writing I've actually done focuses on smart people. Average people have flaws and you start second-guessing any mistake or oversight an "normal" baddy would make.

Of course, then you end up with stories, like Detective Conan, where the world is populated with super-smart janitors who come up with elaborately complex schemes, except for one mistake.

[marycatelli]

"Incredibly" in this context means "smarter than the author by a good margin."

People's ability to conjure this up convincingly is not great, since if they could think like those characters, they would be as smart as them.

[izuko.livejournal.com]

Authors have one advantage that their characters don't - time to think.

[marycatelli]

True. Sometimes writers can convince. But many of them seem to lack the skill to recognize where they are unconvincing.

[marycatelli]

Oh, yes, transcendent states have to -- transcend. It can be really, really, really difficult to write.

[stefan11.livejournal.com]

"a Chinese Heaven and Hell, both of which are just waystations where you hang out a bit before you come back for reincarnation."

The same in Indian culture (Hindu, Jainist or Buddhist) and generally Buddhist culture.

[marycatelli]

Do they have Heaven and Hell as waystations? It would work fine, too, though I haven't happened on any.

[stefan11.livejournal.com]

yes, in a traditional bot Hindu and Buddhist mythologies, there are 6 "realms" of existence:
- humans
- gods (devas, motivated mostly by pleasure)
- asuras (demi-gods motivated mostly by anger)
- animals
- hungry and thirsty ghosts
- beings in hell

There are not necessarily understood as places but frequently they are assumed to be transitory mental states. So, yes, a hell is like purgatory in Christian mythologies.

Here is Kobayashi Issa (1763-1827) series of haiku on this topic:

Hell

Bright autumn moon --
pond snails crying
in the saucepan

The Hungry Ghosts

Flowers scattering --
the water we thirst for
far off, in the mist

Animals

In the falling of petals --
they see no Buddha
no Law

Malignant Spirits

In the shadow of blossoms,
voice against voice,
the gamblers

Men

We humans --
squirming around
among the blossoming flowers

The Heaven Dwellers

A hazy day --
even the gods
must feel listless

[marycatelli]

Yeah, that would work all right.

[asakiyume.livejournal.com]

This set of haiku is wonderful. Really, each one provides so much food for thought.

[marycatelli]

It's amazing how much density language can assume.

[asakiyume.livejournal.com]

I really loved The Great Divorce. I liked that one character's transformation, actually (if you're talking about the guy with his sin on his shoulder)--the thing I liked was that the sin itself transformed into something good, as if to say that all sin really is is corruption of something good--which can be gotten back to.

But yeah, in general I think it's easier--and I prefer--stories that are set in time, in this passing world, or some other world, also passing. If I have to encounter eternity, I want it only in a momentary experience, just a flash or glimpse. Paradoxical.

[marycatelli]

Works much better, storywise, that glimpse.