lawful

[marycatelli]

The values of a reasonably just society will reflect themselves in a reasonably just law. The better the society, the less law there will be. In Heaven there will be no law, and the lion will lie down with the lamb. The values of an unjust society will reflect themselves in an unjust law. The worse the society, the more law there will be. In Hell there will be nothing but law, and due process will be meticulously observed. -- Grant Gilmor

Which quote, naturally, inspires thoughts of alignment, and the Order vs. Chaos conflict for fantasy writers who don't do. . .


Law admits of several meanings.  One could also say that Heaven was full of it because everyone obeyed the law like a rosebush produces roses, and Hell empty for the opposite reason.

The biggest problem I have with it is the way D&D -- and other works -- conflate several levels of law and chaos.  First edition AD&D said that lawful character believe in an orderly universe, and support society, and act in a methodical manner; chaotic characters believe the universe is random and society is a drag, and act in a spontaneous manner.  Latter editions focused more on the opinion of society but never lost the other two. . . .

As if a character could not live in a rigid and methodical manner precisely because he thought the world was random, and society a disorderly sort of prison, to add some structure to his life.  As if a character's view of an orderly universe could not lead him to revolt against a society that tried to impose an unnatural order that did not conform to the universe. . . which is where you get into questions about the difference between Lawful Neutral and Lawful Good.  A true Lawful Neutral character would believe that order is the supreme good so why is he not Lawful Good?  In D&D this tended to answered by a rather rigidly narrow view of goodness as immediate harm to others -- even honesty not coming into play.

You could get some rather lively spats among the Orderly about what is good order.  You seldom see that, either in cosmological or societal terms.

Comments

[nagasvoice.livejournal.com]

Friend of mine recently quoted this one:
...reminded me of the old proverb: God created the world and held it up and said, "Look how pretty it is." And the Devil said, "Oh, but it's messy. Let me organize it for you."

[marycatelli]

Yup.

Technically, if you organized files according to the third letter of the last name, you have organized them.

[johncwright.livejournal.com]

Ironically, Michael Moorcock used a Law-Chaos axis for his 'Eternal Champion' series because he did not want to write about a conflict between Good and Evil. I assume the idea there was that too much law is totalitarianism, and too much chaos is anarchy, so the Happy Medium of Aristotle was the order of the day. The Good is a careful balance. Obviously this cannot match up with a Good versus Evil spectrum, since Good presumes a constant standard of being and evil is any deviation from it. hence the Good is an absolute--the opposite of the pagan Happy Medium.
One of my own D&D arguments that amused me was how to characterized the alignment of a samurai character who obeyed the strictest imaginable honor code, but who was willing to lie and cheat and steal in order to preserve the family honor. It was not 'lawful' if that word means obeying the law, but it was a predictable even fanatically inflexible standard, so it was not 'chaotic.' It was not 'evil' by the D&D definition, which means self-centered, since the character was willing to commit self sacrifice or even suicide if family honor required, but it was deeply deceptive (she was trying to impersonate her sick brother to fulfill his obligations to the royal court) so it was not 'Good' by D&D standards either, which is communal or society oriented. She would have killed innocent people to keep the family secret and hide the family shame without batting an eyelash.

After considerable wrangling, the moderator decided she was lawful neutral. The thing I found amusing was that this code of honor is almost a stereotype, because tribal-loyalty is so common to characters and to real folk, and yet the ninefold system of D&D had no place to put it.

[marycatelli]

It's better than saying that Good has to be moderated with Evil or it will be totalitarian. Which I have read. But a balance between Law and Chaos is Lawful, not Chaotic. . . .

The samurai would be an interesting question, but would require settling many philosophical questions, since evil is the sacrifice of a great good to a lesser one.