philosophical pondering of magic

[marycatelli]

Which is pretty much what you have to do when one of your characters starts doing it, unexpectedly. . . and there's a limit to how far you can cut her talking down because it will determine her next actions.

The rules of magic will determine a whole heck of a lot about what the character can do in a setting.  Is the magic inherent in inanimate objects like gemstones?  Is it found in living beings, but only unintelligent ones like gryphons -- or moly?  Or inherent in some non-human characters?  Or, for that matter, human ones -- I don't like the trope where magic is the provence of some Special Little Snowflakes, but it's clear I'm in the minority, or at least a lot of people can stomach it.  Does it have to be learned?

If it has to be learned, beyond the questions of incantation and sigils and whatnot, there are the principles it works on.  Elemental magic?  (European four elements or Chinese five?)  Similarity and contagion?  Will power?  I suspect my heroine is going to shortly be philosophizing about how there is no such thing as darkness, any more than there is silence or cold, all of those things being absences rather than presences.

As a consequence, she and my hero get to make a big castle fall down.  One does, after all, have to use it as a plot device to justify it.  0:)

Comments

[headnoises.livejournal.com]

....does she live in a world where she can know that cold is just lack of warmth? I can remember the mental shift that happened when I figured that out, although I'm not sure if that's normal.

A theological or natural science background going from the light/dark thing, maybe?

The "some people are just magic" thing bugs me a bit, too, unless it's a fluffy popcorn where I'd accept any other form of wish fulfillment. On the other hand, the "magic is just a kind of science" thing is a bit annoying, too. Rather fond of the "magic is a skill, some folks are naturally really gifted at it, most people can become pretty decent given practice, and a few folks are just not going to be able to be more than horrible" form.

[marycatelli]

natural science works -- I suspect it was the efforts of trying to work pure darkness magically that gave it away.

I like that form too. Though for "kind of science" the feel of it is kinda important.

[headnoises.livejournal.com]

Agreed-- having rules is kind of science-ish, but I'm poorly describing the ones that have magic-as-electricity.

I love the idea that someone figures out that dark/cold/evil are just lacks by trying to magically distill dark or cold-- hadn't considered that route, but if it works by rules and there's a rule that is "gather this thing here" that doesn't work for X, Y and Z, but the "move the opposite away" command DOES make it work.... *glee* That's brilliant!

[marycatelli]

Glad you like it.

Hmmm. . . now I think I shall throw in a scene with a Young Fool trying to distill darkness because he can't be bothered to listen.

[mythusmage.livejournal.com]

But then where do you get the impossible things, such as the items that made up the chains for Fenris?

[headnoises.livejournal.com]

Had to look that one up; generally, if things seem to be impossible if taken literally, you need to take a half-step to the side, although metaphor is also popular.
Classic example with two classic solutions, and a third I just thought up: no man of woman born. Either the man was not born in the normal matter, is a woman, or has non-"woman" mother. (Hello, half-human or, depending on the world setting, child of an outlaw/someone excommunicated/someone sentenced to death/a soldier/ gave her life into the service of someone else/was a child.)

The ribbon was fashioned of six strange elements: the footstep of a cat; the roots of a mountain; a woman's beard; the breath of fishes; the sinews of a bear; and a bird's spittle.

I'm not very good at thinking up metaphors, but half of those are just rare, not impossible-- although asking a lady for beard-hairs might get you killed.

[headnoises.livejournal.com]

Possible symbols:
Dust from a cat's footprint; diamonds as the deepest bits of a mountain, or copper, the veins which can look root-like; hair's from a lady's...er...personal regions; water from a body of water with fish in it; bear sinew I can't think of anything strange for, since it's relatively common; water from a bird gargoyle's mouth.

[headnoises.livejournal.com]

Oooh! Found another list that says a bear's sensibility, or wisdom, which makes more sense-- bear fat! They eat up for the winter, after all.

[marycatelli]

It could also be honey. That is, no doubt, what bears feel most tenderly about.

[marycatelli]

Or perhaps there's an art to capture the metaphor, pure.

[headnoises.livejournal.com]

True, but I don't have the imagination to make that interesting, and I can't think of where I've seen it done well.... Well, maybe the Dresden File's with the "folding a ray of sunshine into a kerchief" when you're truly happy, but that happens off screen.

[marycatelli]

That's where the challenge lies, suggesting what can't be imagined. Like the box in Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell that was heartbreak in color.

Me, I think my venture into it, deliberately undertaken because I liked it in other works and had never tried it before, may work, but the trope probably won't take over my writing output

[marycatelli]

Some are intangible.

[marycatelli]

Depends on whether you want them. 0:)

But if you do, you need sagious, or clever, characters to find them or make them. Me, I have a story where I'm having great fun having the heroine buy thread dyed protection or safety -- both of which come in different shades. A bit wearisome in that this world is replete with this stuff, so I have to keep remembering to add more as local color.

[mythusmage.livejournal.com]

Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.

[marycatelli]

I hope not. Otherwise, what's the point?

It can be fun, a la Operation Chaos to see how close you can come to 20th century America, or another era, with magic, but even there it needs to smell like magic.

In a world that's not trying to be equivalent, the tech level can vary, but if it doesn't feel like magic is going on -- perhaps nasty magic, to be sure -- it leaves me wondering what the point of it is.

[mythusmage.livejournal.com]

Never forget that wonder is often a matter of perception. To a 12 year old the world can be a magical place.

[marycatelli]

But it can be technological wonder, too.

[headnoises.livejournal.com]

I find the more I understand technology, the more amazing it is; only when you take it for granted does it seem dull. (After my electronics class, I've never been able to look at anything electrical the same.)

[marycatelli]

Which does raise the question of why use magic at all?

[headnoises.livejournal.com]

1) More room for metaphor-- making Aslan doesn't make Jesus or the Lord less impressive.
2) More room for story - kinda like #1, but you can build the way things work to have a point instead of being mundanely factual.
3) Won't be as dated in 20 years when things are totally revolutionized and/or the old metaphors you were taught with aren't used anymore.

[marycatelli]

I don't see where the first two you list have anything to do with magic at all.

[headnoises.livejournal.com]

Electricity is very cool, but you can't make an obvious A>B>C for story building out of it. Like your "there is no evil, just a lack of good" example. You MIGHT be able to shoe-horn in something like that with on/off states, but it wouldn't stick with folks because it's not new, and the electrons are still there but aren't moving. Some kind of magic where a body could see electricity and manipulate it, there might be a point to involving electricity....

Tied into that, you can have things like "doing evil magic sucks something out of who you are" that doesn't work as well with science. We know the Nazis were bad, and the experiments they did show it, but it's harder to show direct story-cause between "these people are objects to use as I want" and Jew skin lamps.

[marycatelli]

OTOH, one can also argue that its unreality makes it less effective because it's not a wrong that anyone can actually do.

[headnoises.livejournal.com]

Most wrongs are not something that "anyone" can do-- they're things that people in a set situation can do. If people could only learn from examples of wrongs they are likely to run into the opportunity and inclination to commit, then we'd be pretty poor learners, no?

If, on the other hand, you can find a why for doing a wrong that people can recognize, and a how that it's wrong that will get past folks' natural self-defenses, you're getting somewhere. Doesn't matter if there's not actually an option of pink vs purple dragons. Might actually make things more useful if it's not either a personal threat or something that you can point to real life examples of and go "thank you, Lord, that I am not a sinner like that guy."

I'm very unlikely to, say, beat a lover to death with my bare hands. My only "lover" is my husband, I'm not strong enough, and I can't think of anything he'd actually DO that would incline me to consider it anyways. I might, however, be inclined to more subtle offenses-- my temper is a big problem, and he refuses to argue back, usually agreeing with me. A metaphor that got past my defensiveness (classic "it's just words," for example) would be very valuable.

[marycatelli]

A fantastic change might do as much to obscure as to clarify -- since, of course, it's not the only possible way to defamiliarize.

[headnoises.livejournal.com]

It's not-- pardon the turn of phrase-- a magic ingredient, it's just a tool that can be useful.