city stuff

[marycatelli]

So what's the city built of?

Stone?  Brick?  Wood?  What sort of stone?  And what color, so I can tell whether the stonework is black, or gray, or pink, or gold?

A question implicating all sorts of things.  Where are the woodlands?  Are there clay pits near by?  How about quarries?  How far can you transport materials, and would you bother?

Implicates history, too, since the building material can easily change over the years as woodlands are depleted, and quarries exhausted.

And all I want to do is describe what the city looks like to someone who's a bit attentative to visual detail but not strong on either architecture or its history. . . .

Comments

[whitefangedwolf.livejournal.com]

How old the city is can affect how many different materials were used in the current buildings. If it's a large city, it may have gone through a stage where it outgrew its walls. If it had large sections of wooden buildings, it may have had one or more major fires that lead to rebuilding in brick and stone.

[marycatelli]

Especially if it's dragonfire. . . .

Whoops. Does building in stone or brick make a difference when it's dragonfire? Hmmm. . . .

[whitefangedwolf.livejournal.com]

If the temperature of dragonfire is high enough or has special magical properties, then brick and stone could melted by it. I'm not sure if it's even possible to ignite a brick without ridiculous temperatures being used. Depending on the composition of the stones, it might be possible to ignite them with high temperatures.

If brick and stone are meltable by dragonfire, the building materials will be selected based on how common dragon attacks are and whether there's an efficient way to break up and remove large amounts of melted brick and stone.

[ford-prefect42.livejournal.com]

Most "stones" and "clays" are comprised of various Silicon oxides. The key word there being "oxides". That means that they are fundamentally ash materials in a fully oxidized state. That means, in turn, that there are relatively few stones that can "burn". Marble, which is primarily calcium oxides, has a melting/decomposition point around 850 degrees C, or near the melting point of steel. However, if you were to attempt to bring marble to that temperature, you wouldn't get melted marble, you'd get marble chips, because several of the impurities have lower kindling/decomposition temperatures, and would create pressures that would detonate the marble before it came to the melting point. Try it in a crucible from a safe distance :) Bricks are even worse, with melting points in excess of 2000C. however, this does tend to depend on binder materials and aggregate composition.

More to the point, stone, brick, etcetera, are brittle materials, they do not support tension. So any practical structure other than a simple keystone arch bridge *must* contain wood. Which burns quite easily. Stone structures are quite shockingly vulnerable to fire. They may however work to contain the spread of fire between separate structures.

All of which boils down to, towers attacked by dragon-fire will not likely appear "melted", but instead, "shattered". the heat from the dragonfire will superheat the water in the construction materials, and cause a large series of micro-explosions that basically turn the tower back into gravel, followed by a conventional fire of the wooden backbone of the structure.

[marycatelli]

"there are relatively few stones that can "burn"."

Barring the right incentive. This may amuse:
http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2008/02/26/sand_wont_save_you_this_time.php

Though dragonfire is not quite that bad.

[whitefangedwolf.livejournal.com]

Dragon slaying would be quite impressive if dragonfire behaved like chlorine trifluoride. The slayer would need to be clever, cunning, and lucky to succeed.

[marycatelli]

And probably need a gas mask as well!

[izuko.livejournal.com]

You could have fun with having a non-traditional dragon-slayer... like a down-on-his-luck ifrit who, through a curse or industrial accident, can no longer ignite, but ends up just catalysing gasses into harmless compounds.

[marycatelli]

Probably would have to make it funny.

[whitefangedwolf.livejournal.com]

Good point on the wood supports. Either I forgot they were needed or I was subconsciously using metal support beams which would imply more advanced technology.

The information you shared about the shattering of brick and stone by dragon-fire is interesting. I wonder whether it would be more hazardous to be surrounded by stone structures or wooden structures during a dragon attack. I guess it partially depends on whether dragon-fire is a burning liquid or a burning gas.

[marycatelli]

I think for this story I will motivate the heroine to avert the attack.

[whitefangedwolf.livejournal.com]

That's reasonable. Dragons are often the sort of being you don't want dropping into town, angry or otherwise.

[marycatelli]

Everyone thinks it a Good Thing that the king persuaded them not to except for the wizards who get stuck with the job of keeping them happy.

[izuko.livejournal.com]

Even without melting, there will be a significant amount of spalling and shattering.

[marycatelli]

Yeah, that could get really ugly.

[marycatelli]

There is the added incentive that you sometimes see the smoke rising from the mountain. . . .

[ford-prefect42.livejournal.com]

What's the climate? The landscape?

No that it really matters all that much, any large city built solely of wood will denude the region fairly quickly, due to the inevitable fires. And any city built exclusively of quarry-stone (marble) will be incredibly resource intensive, involving a massive empire to support a single city (Rome, for instance, had a LOT of quarry-stone.

So, what's in the middle? Brick. The vast majority of historical urban construction was done with variations on the "brick" theme.... Well, that's not acurate, the vast majority of *persistent* urban construction was done in brick.

So, for most cities throughout time, you'll have a section that is primarily wood, which will be the "poor quarter". It'll burn down pretty regularly. Then you'll have the 50% of the city that's brick, then the rich quarter which will be quarry-stone.

Of course, *what* woods, colors of brick, and types of stone will depend on *exactly* where your city is located. however, given fantasy settings, geology need not be consistent!

[bunn.livejournal.com]

Doesn't that depend on what the local stone was? I'm looking around at my local medieval towns, which have never been notable for their empires, and present a largely granite face to the world. Thinking also of the cotswolds, all medieval sandstone...

For brick, I think you need ample supplies of clay, which is not always available any more than marble.

[marycatelli]

Yeah, you need clay. though in my home town there were three lovely little lakes that had been clay pits -- you can dig up and export it -- at least until you hit a spring and it fills up overnight

[marycatelli]

Fortunately, not an earthquake prone area.

[ford-prefect42.livejournal.com]

alternatively, you can get lazy, and describe the buildings as "ornate", or "plain", or "well-constructed", or "shoddy".

[marycatelli]

Inconsistent with viewpoint character. 0:)

She's the sort that would note the actual colors.

[izuko.livejournal.com]

Rock & Roll... duh.

Joking aside, it depends on how old the city is. Most cities are first built with wood. Only after much deforestation do they start going to bricks. Even Persia, once part of a great cedar forest, was wooden long before Persepolis was constructed (or the portion of the city for which we have ruins).

As the society of the city matures and density rises, brick also becomes the choice for fire planning. Cities like this can be identified by looking at their histories and finding one or more "Great Fire of [insert city name here]." London and Chicago are prime examples of this. At least in Chicago, the building codes were driven by the insurance agencies.

[marycatelli]

then, there is the question not only of dragonfire but of magical protections therefrom. Insurance companies might check out the runes graved on the wood instead. . . .

[whitefangedwolf.livejournal.com]

Engraved magical rune protection introduces three interesting questions:

1. How easy are they to install?

How precisely do the rune have to be carved?

Do they just have to be carved or is there a ritual involved?

Are the rune grooves left empty or are they filled with a particular substance as part of the process that makes them work?

2. How do you tell if they're working?

Are there magical methods of detection or does an expect have to carefully study them?

3. Is the application a one-time event?

Do the runes keep working as long as they are undamaged or do they have to be refreshed every so often?

[marycatelli]

Alas, in this story, that knowledge is so basic that the point of view character will never reflect on it. . . .

[izuko.livejournal.com]

True, but having a code inspector point out some shoddy workmanship in the runes could flesh out and lend credibility to the system - especially if they have to be filled with a metal that tarnishes or oxidizes over time - the oxidation of which has a direct effect on the efficacy of the runes.

Other than Magical Bureaucracy, nothing lends authenticity like magical maintenance.

[marycatelli]

Ah, but throwing in both an inspector and an inspection, at a time in which both are improbable, would subtract credibility.

[headnoises.livejournal.com]

You can bypass all that by having them puttied over, too. Or painted. Or both.

Putty-and-painted-symbols might be good if you've got symbol magic; harder to wash off than paint, easier than chiseling the runes.

[marycatelli]

I've seen painted brick, occasionally, but not stone.

[headnoises.livejournal.com]

White-wash is a form of paint. I usually see it with river rocks and mortar.

[marycatelli]

Ah. In this town, I suspect stone will be worked because it means Institution.